Arthur "Bomber " Harris.....

Fiction, movies, alternate history, humor, and other non-research topics related to WWII.

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M.H.
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Post by M.H. »

Torqi? You are wriggling again??? :wink:
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Post by Jan-Hendrik »

Oops , he did it again ... :wink:

:[]

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Post by Torquez »

As expected Jan Hendrik provide no sources to confirm any reasnoble doubts over IPN, Luftwaffe expert, and photos credibility.
You brought in this claim , its up to you to proove it . You still failed , I am still waiting ...
Nope. I brought no claims.It is you who brought claim that Frampol is a myth, contradicting such scholary institutions as IPN. It is your job to support your extraordinary claim, that contradicts the established historical knowledge.
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Post by Jan-Hendrik »

Already forgotten :

http://www.feldgrau.net/phpBB2/viewtopi ... c&start=15

:?:

You claimed there was a "Terror bombing" , now you try to get away from your duty to proove your allegations . Poor , Torqui , poor ... :down:

If this would be
stablished historical knowledge
why you still fail to bring in the primary sources to proove it ?

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Post by M.H. »

I've googled for Frampol but it was not really helpful...(don't want to use Wiki in this case).

Could you provide some links Torquez?

Thanks!
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Post by phylo_roadking »

Torquez, regarding your statement above - do you remember a long discussion about "population transfer" and "ethnic cleansing" and the status of the government of Poland from 1945 to 1947? *I* said there was a legal government with unbroken service record, only problem was it was in London. You denied this.....
Poland as distintict political entity on its own was formed in 1947.
your quote
and after that
phylo_roadking wrote:
and the existence or otherwise of a government
Which was created in 1947
your quote

That puts that section to rest. "A Terrible Revenge III" if you REALLY want to check and not just move on to some other denying of your own words.
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Post by Cott Tiger »

Hi guys,

I am seeing some blatant double standards being applied by members here. This discussion started with an analysis of whether it could be legitimate to target civilians.

The majority of members agreed that the RAF terror bombings of cities such as Dresden and Hamburg were, by modern day standards at least, crimes against humanity. Some were more forthright and believe they are war crimes.

However, when the tables are turned and the bombing and killing of civilians by the Luftwaffe is discussed there is no such frank admissions and there appears to be wish to impose ambiguity on what is generally regarded as historical fact.

If the Allies are guilty of crimes against humanity in blanket bombing industrial cities of the Reich, then by definition the Luftwaffe is also guilty of the same in its indiscriminate attacks on Guernica, Frampol, and many others.

I am sorry but anybody that claims the Luftwaffe did not intentionally kill civilians in either Guernica or Frampol is simply being disingenuous.

Regards,

Andre
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Post by Jan-Hendrik »

Sorry , Andre , I disagree . It is always the question what is targeted , will say : whats the primary aim of an attack and whats the secondary . And especially on this we have to distinguish between propaganda and hard facts . As there is already much serious research done on this topic ( sorrowly mostly ignored by the Media ) , f.e. this collection of articles of international experts on air warfare , published by the official german institute MGFA :
Luftkriegführung im Zweiten Weltkrieg – ein internationaler Vergleich. Im Auftrag des MGFA hrsg. von Horst Boog, 1993; 876 S
it is amazing what BS is still published by pseudo-historians and other wannabees .

My humble opinion :wink:

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Post by Cott Tiger »

Jan,

According to this serious research, why exactly was Guernica levelled using such excessive bomb tonnage and incendiaries with so much loss of innocent human life?

Whether the killing of civilians is a primary or secondary objective (in the case I would still argue it was primary), it is still an intentional objective.

Exactly the same arguments you are using here Jan can be applied to Dresden or any other German city heavily bombed in Germany - factories, transportation links etc are legitimate targets and civilian deaths are just an unfortunate side effect. If it doesn’t wash with RAF bombing, then it doesn’t wash with Luftwaffe bombing either. You can’t have your cake and eat it.

As I have stated before, the Germans intentionally bombed and killed innocent civilians throughout the war from Guernica through to the V1- Rocket attacks on Britain in 1945.

Regards,

Andre
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Post by Jan-Hendrik »

Sorry , I did not use this for Dresden , if yes , please show me where :wink:

For Guernica ,
Guernica levelled using such excessive bomb tonnage and incendiaries
it was neither "levelled" ( indeed , it was in many parts heavily hit ) nor existed an order "to destroy the city or to target civilian targets" . There were 2 Btl. in the city and other 23 Btls on the way to Guernica . Richthofen got the order to prevent their retreat . So he did , yes , not concerning much about possible civil casualities , but who did , especially in Spanish civil war . Keep in mind which type of bombers were used in the attack , that precise targetting intruments still did not exist during that time and , not to forget , how those incendiaries were dropped : the were thrown out of the side doors of Ju-52 ( yes , these old-fashioned transport planes ) by the crew with shovels . You might imagine how precise this bombing was ?

Source :
Abendroth, Hans-Henning: Guernica. Ein fragwürdiges Symbol. In: Militärgeschichtliche Mitteilungen 41 (1987) S. 111 - 126.

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Post by Cott Tiger »

Jan,

I didn’t say you had used the argument about Dresden. What I said is that your argument can be applied to Dresden or any other German city devastated by the RAF. A few hundred troops stationed here, a couple of factories there, and it’s legitimate to wipe out thousands of innocent men, women and children?

If you order your planes and men to shovel incendiary devices over a civilian population that has just been heavily bombed you are intentionally trying to kill them, regardless of how many troops may or may not be amongst them.

Are you really suggesting that the devastation and death inflicted on innocent people in Guernica can be justified because allegedly there were two btls. of troops in the town?

Jan, to be frank, I find your argument astounding.

Regards,

Andre
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Helmut Von Moltke

Post by Helmut Von Moltke »

About bombings of civilians during WWII, what's done is done. It's useless to try to defend, justify, or to make a big propaganda show or public relations out of these things. It is better try to understand facts about it, why it happened, etc and learn from it instead of fight over it.

K
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Post by Jan-Hendrik »

Sorry Andre , but I think you are misunderstanding me totally .

I do not justify anything , from our humanistic point of view that had been all extremly terrible , but , if we want to judge about Terror bombing or war crimes we cannot take those standarts for judgement . That does not work and that would be what you labeled as "double standard" .

That can only be done by critical analysis of what hat happened , what was ordered and what were the standards of warfare in that particular time

And , yes , if we are following your point of view Dresden would have been one of the largest war crimes of WW2 . But I think that would go to far , or simply , it would take too much time to elaborate the escalation of air warfare in WW2 , as much as this has been already done by the experts .

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Post by phylo_roadking »

Andre - Bomber Command bombed the civilian working population by direct and recorded order of their government and commanding officer, in accordance with their adopted war policy. Late in the war they realised the impact this was having and would have on popular opinion at home and around the world, and instructed Bomber Command in the shape of the Air Chief Officer Commanding to reduce the loss of civilian lives Compared with their policy up until then, an admission that this was indeed the expessed polic of the British War Cabinet. The RAF was responsible for its own operational planning, and subsequent photo rcce and interprestation for planning further raids. They knew who they were targeting, what they were targeting and the extent of the damage they were causing.

In the case of Guernica, the Luftwaffe accepted orders from their two command chains, operating on information provided and did not carry out their own photo recce - which because of this they were scrupulous to do for the the rest of the Spanish Civil War. The Italians - who were trying to conclude a truce with the local government in the region, participated in the attacks - which they would not have done, given the political environment - if this had been expressed to the air arms involved that this was a raid targeted specifically at the civilian population.

In the years since, the local authorities there have been very scrupulous in assessing down the casualty figure from the Guernica bombing; in the days following it, and ever since, journalists' reports from the are at the time have been used to provide a casualty figire of 10,000 to 16,000 dead; the Basques own memorial - and theyre hardly likely to have agreed with Franco's propaganda - record only some 1650 dead and injured.

Guernica is one of the most "renowned" but also badly-assessed historical events in modern history. Yes, the Luftwaffe DID bomb a civilian target - the difference between them and the RAF over Cologne or Hamburg was the RAF followed government policy, did their own targeting, and damage and loss assessment. They were totally aware of the target - the working population - and totally aware of the conseuences of their actions. Several of these circumstances did not apply to the Condor Legion at Guernica. Even Spanish primary researchers agree with this.

That may be a controversial comparison - but if you want to concentrate on the facts of the bombings, then you have to take in ALL the facts.
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Post by Cott Tiger »

double post!
Last edited by Cott Tiger on Sat Aug 26, 2006 5:33 am, edited 1 time in total.
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