Battle of ardennes.

German campaigns and battles 1919-1945.

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SS-Hauptsturmführer
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Battle of ardennes.

Post by SS-Hauptsturmführer »

what would happen if Axis have won the Battle of Ardennes?
(Sorry bad english :oops: )
Avatar: Panzerkampfwagen VI Ausf.B. 'King tiger tank' or Sonderkraftfahrzeug 182.(Sd.kfz.182.)
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Rudi S.
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Battle of the Bulge

Post by Rudi S. »

Hello,
it most likely would have delayed the defeat of the German Army by a few weeks or months - just my guess.
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Post by phylo_roadking »

The immediate tactical result of the Ardennes offensive would have been the retaking of Antwerp as planned or at least the denying of it to the Allies as a port. By that point in the war it was their biggest debarkation port in Western Europe. Hence the V1 offensive against the city also.

THIS it was hoped would have made further advance into Germany impractical, as they Allies had advanced far beyond being supplied out of Normandy, In Hitler's mind they would then have been facing the SAME proposition as so many times in Northern Africa, too far advanced to resupply so forced to halt and build up supplies. The Germans however would be on their own doorstep, and might have managed to resupply their forward divisions faster, or at last as fast as it was coming out of the factories, just like the Russians in front of Moscow in 1941. Thus forcing the Allies into accepting a CONDITIONAL surrender of German Forces. Remember too that UNconditional Surrender had been a suprise of FDR's at Casablanca and Churchill agreed to GO ALONG with it, but didnt agree with it.....

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Jerry
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Re: Battle of ardennes.

Post by Jerry »

SS-Hauptsturmführer wrote:what would happen if Axis have won the Battle of Ardennes?
Well, the Western Allies certainly would not have sued for peace, and probably would not have accepted anything short of unconditional surrender by the Germans. The advance by the Western Allies would have been slowed, and this would likely only mean that more of western Europe would have been occupied by the Soviets! Not necessarrily a good thing for anyone!

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Helmut Von Moltke

Post by Helmut Von Moltke »

if the Wehrmacht had won the battle and taken Antwerp, it would put an end to any Allied offensive for at least a few months, allowing German troops to be divereted to the East to halt the Soviets, and in those few extra months, valuable time, Germany could build more military units, and secret weapons, and even change the tide of the war. but, just my guess.

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Post by phylo_roadking »

Wouldnt have done THAT much, lack of raw materials is still a lack, what are you gonna do with the time - build even more Me262s to sit rusting in fields because you can't build engines?
What it MIGHT have gained is a PERCEPTION among the Allies that things had stopped being as "easy" as they hoped - after all, it would have come a few short months after the reverse of an alternate strategy at Arnhem. Havigna proeponderance of men and materiel is nothing without the 100% will to use them with determination.
What it WOULD have done is given time for an orderly withdrawal of forces from Denamrk and Norway and a percentage from Italy; the Italian idea has always been contentious when discussed with friends, but given Uncle Joe's position on Austria after the war there would have been no easy way into the softunderbelly that way, and the Alps would have been defensible with vastly fewer resources.
It would have bought time to shore up the Westwall with front line units, and to draw up proper stoplines in the East. LINES, not individual fortresses. It would have given time for the Volksturm divisions to have received something approaching proper training and equipment. Look how well they actually DID do without either...
Finally, it might just have let time and determination "remove" AH's interference from command of the army and let the generals fight the war....and let more time lead to a proper falling-apart and civil war inside the Reich. For you would have had a continuation if not worsening of the bomber offensive without any real defensive sir cover - remember the Luftwaffe scraped together then lost over 600 aircraft in the first four days of the offensive.....
Basically EVERY element military, political economic or social would have had time to work its way further to completion; May 8th 1945 "saved" Germany from MORE of everything......

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Post by von_noobie »

In my view the Germans would have cut off the U.S 1st army and parts or most of the british 2nd army,
It would thus leave a huge gap in the allied line, Not that the Germans had the fuel for there tanks but they could make use of the gap and have there infantry advance.
A fair bit of captured equiptment to use against the Russians,
It would save the Germans for no less than 4 months,
Possible encirclement of the Canadian 1st army if the Germans gather the supplies to shoot from Brussels to Dunkirk and IF the Canadians dont retreat fast enought,
Allied moral severly damaged in the west and in Italy due to the losses,
Will pretty much for the next 4-6 months allow the Germans to fight a 1 front war,
I dont think the tide of the war would have been changed but i do beleive it would have been lenghtened by some time....up to early-mid 1946
I think the Germans would not be able to advance any further and would fix there mistakes and destroy Antwerp completely...Denying the allies any use of the port in a counter offensive,
Helmut Von Moltke

Post by Helmut Von Moltke »

maybe with this time, Germany might even get a negotiated peace, if secret weapons were developed and used within those few extra months.
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Post by Mike H »

I think we are forgetting one point here, the Russians. There is no way Stalin would have stood by and watched Germany destroy the anglo-american forces and allow a return to a one front war. Germany could not have completed the destruction of the allies before January 12 and nothing short of a total transfer of the armies facing the allies could have hoped to prevent the utter collapse of the eastern front when the attack came.

In short the Russian winter offensive would have started and the Germans would have been forced to transfer the bulk of their mobile forces east as they did anyway after the offensives failure.

Had Germany been succesfull in capturing Antwerp before this happened I think I would have been possible the allies would have linked up on the Rhine instead of the Elbe maybe round June/July of 45. Either way, the war could not have lasted much longer than it did anyway.

Regards.
Helmut Von Moltke

Post by Helmut Von Moltke »

There is no way Stalin would have stood by and watched Germany destroy the anglo-american forces
well, Stalin would probably watch it with delight, and attack when the Allies armies were destroyed and the Wehrmacht is still tied in the West destroying the remnants of the Anglo American forces. The art of totalarian politics in war. %E But, thats just a rough guess. :shock:
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Post by phylo_roadking »

HvM - what wonder weapons??? There was nothing left that would have gone into service that wasn't already in use or in planning testing. Some of THOSE needed YEARS of lead time even to get to where they did. Germany's problem in late 1944 was a lack of what they were already producing. Lets discount all those wonderful designs on Luftwaffe '46....there were so few engines available, so many of them remained on the drawing board. Why do you think they designed a version of the People's Fighter with V-1 RAMJETS??? because they wanted to???
On the ground....what was in he pipeline? The E-75/E-100 modular tank series promised a lot....but required another 18months lead time at least. The Maus idea, despite Hitelr's fiaxation with it, was another example of bigger isnt better, if the stupid decision had been made to manufacture in numbers ALL it would have done is take away valuable production capacity from proven designs that were needed in far greater quantities than could alreaady be produced.
Nothing in the Mittelwerke was going to give them anything extra in the area of ballistic bombardment...except if they had come up with some better guidance system that could have used the V2 for tactical bambardment. But that was a false hope, it took the U.S.Navy two YEARS to come up with a real guidance system after the war even for the V1.

No - what Germany would have gained was TIME...Time for what? build up stocks of fuel from the ersatz program, time for more vehicles to rooll off the limited production lines....dont forget by then most vital armaments industries had relocated underground as required....reequip frontline forces with the new infantry small arms and tain train train....and bring back units from abroad.

Reuse captured equipment? No, not really, except for transport elements. Reuse of weapons in the short term DEMANDS that you capture suitable stocks of ammunition - wasn't athat fter all that exactly why Antwerp was so vital, so that the Allied frontline could be supplied from closer at hand???

Just thinking - HvM; the ONLY wonder weapons left to AH at that time was the ONE that everyone is amazed he didnt use, even at the very very end when so many atrocities of ALL tyoes were already being uncovered or continued pointlessly anyway.....SArin and Tabun, the nerve gases that no Allied ccountermeasures would have been effective against. I know they were only tactical weapons, but through Eastern Russia and Polnad - where the Germans believed the locals were animals anyway - it has always amazed me that these werent used
in extremis

phylo
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Post by Helmut Von Moltke »

Wonder weapons? well, many documentaries, etc that kind of stuff talk about Germany nearly managing to finish an A Bomb. Also a V3 weapon might be produced, that might even reach the USA, for example, launched from a U Boat, read this in some book about Hitler at war, etc. About the chemical weapons, probably they weren't used, because massive retaliation of gas from the Allies, and more unhesitantly from the Reds, would have come.
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Post by Reb »

"Won" in the Ardennes? Before or after the destruction of Kampfgruppe Peiper? I asssume Bastogne has fallen and 5th Pz Army has reached the Meuse.

The same problem would have dogged them that crippled them in defeat. Lack of petrol.

My guess is that "victory" would simply have exposed that much more of the German forces to encirclement. Remember - the weather was getting better and the Jabos were out in force. Had Fritz been able to move his supply columns into the Ardennes from across the Rhine to get 5th Pz Army moving they'd have been moving into a trap on the clogged, muddy roads and been torn to pieces.

the Germans really didn't have many good moves left in late '44.

My own take is that rather than attack in the Ardennes, where much of the fuel they needed never managed to make it forward, would be to transfer that fuel to the Luftwaffe - get those idle Me262s into the air and try to intimidate the allies by regaining some substance in the air war while moving the panzers east.

There are times when there are no winning moves so you simply try to cause your enemy pain and hope he will lose interest!

cheers
Reb
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Post by Helmut Von Moltke »

Before or after the destruction of Kampfgruppe Peiper?
Kampfgruppe Peiper was far from destryoed, 800 men marched out in safely, abandoning their behicles ,defeated only by poor supplies of fuel, and superior Allies forces.
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Post by von_noobie »

HvM, The Rocket you are talking abot being carried by the u-boat was a V-2, The designe was pretty much 3 tubes each containing a V-2, The compartments would be towed behind the U-boat and when they get in range a section wold be flooded to bring the tubes upright, They would then be fired. But even thoe they allready had the U-boat modified and one compartment allready made i dont think it would have done much except piss off the Yanks and make them launch another 1000 bomber raid against ports being used by the kriegsmarine,
Production on vehicles did increase in the end but the ammo production was still were it was in 1941,
Best thing Germany could have done, Cancel all research projects for the Luftwaffe and anny heavy tank with a weight of more then 75 tonnes, Do the finishing toches on the Panther 2 and put that into small production to replace the King Tiger, It only weighed 48 tonnes, Not bad for a tank that could mount a 7.5cm KwK 42 L/100 or a 8.8cm KwK 43 L/71(with out muzzle brake),
The Reuse weapons would not be given to the Army but to the volkesturm which laked half the time any weapons, Giving them weapons would atleast double there fighting capability at least,
The Luftwaffe was no more, The best you could do would be Organise all remaining Luftwaffe personnal into scratch forces,
All the AA guns should then be shipped to the East,
And the only way they could slow the Russians down a little until Reinforcements arrived would be to do a mix of ww1 and ww2 tactics, Have civilian labour build massive Trench and tunnel networks cobered with wood or sheet metal, The trenches should be 1m wide and about 2-2.2m deep, Over the wood or sheet metal would be dirt and vegitation to hide the defenses, A anti tak ditch should be placed about 10m infront of the first trench also to be covered and camoflauged, The 1st trench would most likely be nticeable from the ground but hopefully not from the air, The tactics would involve taking out as many russians before they get to close and then do an organised retreat to the next line, which would also be set up the same way, To help cause as many russian casualties as possible barbed wire fences would be set up 7.5m from the trench,
these defences would apeare 4 times before the Russians reaced a fortress line were mass amounts of anti tank and anti infantry weapons would be placed, Defences should be placed so that the troops have a clear field of fire, behind the fortress line would be small but well organised tank units to take on any russian tanks that do break through,
This fortress lie would contain 3 trenches to be placed on a natural or manmade slope so that all trenches can fire onto the enemy at once, behind these would be anti tank weapons and machine guns and morters, behind them would be the reserves and HQ's which would be dug into the ground upto 40ft if necissary, all lines of communication to the front would be run under the ground, Panzerfaust should be issued out at the most vulnerable spots with the remainder going evenly around the troops.
IF this method could slow the russian advance enought i think you will find a revolt occuring in the red army, How might you ask well simple, around the start of april stalin issued an order telling the troops that all standed infantry were to be stripped down so that there clothing could be reused, this angered the troops and several units were ready to mutiny in the next month with dozens of others thinking about it, And from what i have seen in the past and still today if one person does something another or even dozens of other peaple will also do it.
Thus russian front collapsed and Germany free to deal with the remainder of the western front and italy.

Just my 2cents.
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