2 Dec. 1942, Western Mediterranean

German Luftwaffe 1935-1945.
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Enrico Cernuschi
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Post by Enrico Cernuschi »

Hello Cheshire Yeomanry,

PRO paper state TWO torpedoes by enemy action hit HMS Quentin. Rex Stout would have say "Too many torpedoes" as no Italian or German torpedo was launched that morning.

I have got the proceeding of one of the officiers of HMS Quentin (there was, as usual, an inquiry about the loss of the ship) and no air attack is reported against HMS Quiberon until the ship moored at Bone. The end of Quentin was observed by the La Galite Is. watch station as Quiberon, running at 33 knots, was yet below the horizon when the plane (or planes?) bombed the abandoned Quentin.

I still believe the only way to discover the truth is to find the Luftwaffe report.

Bye

EC
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Enrico Cernuschi
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Post by Enrico Cernuschi »

Many thanks Lorenz,

I just wrote at that address. If you were able, anyway, to find any furhter detail about the Luftwaffe activity on 2 Dec. 1942 I would appreciate it very much.

Greetings

EC
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Enrico Cernuschi
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Post by Enrico Cernuschi »

Good evening Thomas,

the Ju 87 detail mathches with a minor Italian Navy source which states Quentin had been attacked by Ju 87. A raid against Tabarka would have been directed, as usual, from the sea to avoid any land sighting. A ship materializing suddenly from the dark of the night and not firing, being abandoned, would have been a good target of opportunity for a pair (a kette, isn't it) of Stukas.

Bye

EC
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cpa95
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Post by cpa95 »

Hi Enrico,

come more sources:
Gundelach stated in Vol. II, Luftwaffe im Mittelmeer, that QUENTIN was sunk by german Kampfflugzeuge using an aerial torpedo, citing the Lagebericht 1.12.-15.12.1942 of Luftwaffe, III M 1009/1 and Roskill, The war at sea, II, p. 343.

War Diary of OKW, Vol 1942/II, p. 1251, stated that a allied destroyer was sunk by german "Kampfflugzeuge" after attacking a convoy (Sonderorientierung OKW/WFst/Op. 3.12.-9.1242). This report also contends in addition the wrong statement, that during the attack of the allied group 1 cruiser and a destroyer had been sunk by the escorting italian destroyers.

Greetings
Thomas
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Post by Andy H »

Hi Enrico

Thank you for your response.

Given what the PRO, yourself, Lorenz & Thomas have dug up, it seems far from certain who or what sank the Quentin. Though on balance I'm still for the torpedo option but......

Regards
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Post by Enrico Cernuschi »

Hello Thomas,

your last news are exciting indeed. A German plane after an attack at a convoy. That's hard evidence even if such a raid is not mentioned in my sources.
About Roskill I would consider that book with a grain of salt as the same; the reference at the torpedo seems different in the two German source you were able to discover. The first quote it. but it's an after the war one while the OKW does not speak about sucj a weapon. Does the German word Kampfflugzeuge stay for a dive bomber ot a torpedobomber too?

I was able to identify the following Ju.88 units active on Bone in Nov. and Dec. 1942: KG. 60; III./KG. 26; III./KG.30; II./KG.54; III./KG.54. The Ju 87 II./St.G. 3 was used against naval targets in those months. Could these infos being useful?

A grateful

EC
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Post by cpa95 »

Hi Enrico,

i think, usually there is a difference between the wording Kampfflugzeuge (He111, Ju88, Do217 etc) und Sturzkampfbomber (Ju87) in the war diaries. But its unclear for me, if in this case the word "Kampfflugzeuge" could not mean Ju87.

Some details from Gundelach:
On 30.11.1942 the Luftfloote 2 had 89 Ju87, 5o of them usuable.
Ju88 engaged during the crisis in front of Tunis: 27.11.: 90 / 29.11.: 50 / 2.12.: 20
The II./StG 3 (Ju87) lost 24 airplanes on 25.11.1942 at Djedeida on ground.

Regards
Thomas
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Post by Lorenz »

I was able to identify the following Ju.88 units active on Bone in Nov. and Dec. 1942: KG. 60; III./KG. 26; III./KG.30; II./KG.54; III./KG.54. The Ju 87 II./St.G. 3 was used against naval targets in those months. Could these infos being useful?
I have detailed records for all of the above, as well as for KG 77 which was also there. I checked them all and there is nothing that even vaguely relates to the events of 2 December. Nichts, nada. I sure thought I./KG 60 based at Elmas/Sardinia might be the one, but nothing.

BTW, the term "Kampfflugzeug" always refers to bombers (He 111, Ju 88, etc.). Sturzkampfflugzeug is dive-bomber (Ju 87). Torpedoflugzeug is torpedo-bomber.

--Lorenz
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Post by Lorenz »

I FOUND IT! I had only checked my notes from Radtke. I went to his book a few minutes ago and here it is:
Dezember1942
Zur Bekampfung der U-Boot-Gefahr in der Str. v. Sizilien wird durch das II. Fliegerkorps in Trapani bei der Wettererkundungsstaffel 26 ein U-Boot-Jagdkommando unter Hptm. Stiller eingerichtet. Hierzu müssen die Kampfgruppen im Wechsel für je zehn Tage, ein bis zwei Besatzungen abstellen. - Unter dem Luftschirm des Fliegerführers Tunis (Oberst Harlinghausen) und Flugzeugen des II. Flg. Korps, beginnt die 5. Panzerarmee am 1. De- zember eine Offensive, um den Brückenkopf zu erweitern und die brit. 1. Armee auf die Linie Medjez el Bab - Cap Serrat zurückzudrücken. Die vielfaltigen, an das Geschwader gerichteten Aufgaben, wie Bekampfung der feindlichen Luftwaffe, Angriffe gegen Schiffe und Hafen, Unterstützung des Heeres in Tunesien und der Schutz eigener Geleite, erfordern von den Kampfgruppen oft die Durchführung von mehreren Zielarten am gleichen Tage, was sich natürlich stark auf die Einsatzzahlen der Flugzeuge auswirkt.

01.12.- 10.l2.1942
Am 01.12. Einsatz der I./54 in der Geleitsicherung, II./54 gegen Hafen Bône, III./54 zur Heeresunterstützung südlich Tebourba. (Nach brit. Quellen wird am 01.12. der Trans-porter Hindustan (5245 BRT) durch Bomben schwer beschadigt.). - In der Nacht des 0l./02.12. haben brit. Seestreitkrafte bei einem Vorstoß in die Straße von Sizilien ein ital. Geleit von vier Schiffen (mit 2000 Soldaten an Bord) versenkt. Drei Ju 88 der I./54starten um 04.47 Uhr .auf die nach Westen ablaufenden Zerstörer. Nördlich der Insel Zembretta wird der Zerstörer Quentin (1503t) im Sturzangriff durch eine 500kg Bombe getroffen und schwer beschadigt. (Er wird später von einem anderen Verband durch Lufttorpedotreffer versenkt). - II./54 fliegt Geleitsicherung und die III./54 bombardiert die Hafenanlagen von Bône.
[Source: Radtke, Siegfried. Kampfgeschwader 54: von der Ju 52 zur Me 262 - Eine Chronik nach Kriegstagebüchern, Dokumenten und Berichten 1935 – 1945 (Munich, 1990), pp.163-64].

I don’t intend to translate this entire narrative, but I will translate the salient portion beginning with the second paragraph:

On 1 December I./KG 54 was employed on convoy security, II./KG 54 against Bône harbor, III./KG 54 to support the Army south of Tebourba. (According to British sources, the transport Hindustan (5245 BRT) was heavily damaged by bombs on 1 December). During the night of 1/2 December, British surface forces advanced into the Straits of Sicily and sank an Italian convoy of four ships (with 2,000 soldiers on board). Three Ju 88s of I./KG 54 took off around 0447 hrs. after the destroyers withdrawing to the West. North of Zembretta Island the destroyer Quentin (1503t) was dive-bombed, hit by a 500kg bomb and severely damaged. (It was later sunk by aerial torpedo from another unit). II./KG 54 flew convoy security and III./KG 54 bombed Bône harbor installations.

--Lorenz
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Enrico Cernuschi
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Post by Enrico Cernuschi »

Now the search is over.

Thank you very much Lorenz and Thomas. Without your help it would have been impossible to solve this little mistery.
I hope to be able to be useful in your researches.

Sincerely

EC
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Post by Enrico Cernuschi »

Hello Gentlemen,
I believe, by now, it's confirmed HMS Quentin was hit by a torpedo and later, after it had been abandoned, by a near miss. The ship sunk, according the PRO report, "about 15 seconds after the 2nd hit".

No plane, then, attacked Quiberon.

Bye

EC
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Post by Andy H »

Enrico wrote:
No plane, then, attacked Quiberon.
The Quiberons Captains note:
I was alongside for about 8/10 minutes, it seemed longer, and was subjected to cannon fire and bombs. I decided that I could stay no longer, and went full astern as another pair of aircraft attacked.

The bombs fell where my forecastle had been and exploded under my bow
Hi Enrico

I'm sorry for being a pain but how can you make that statement.

Though the German logs make note of hitting the Quetin it doesn't say anything about not attacking other vessels There were 3 Ju88's after all.

Lorenz stated
(It was later sunk by aerial torpedo from another unit).
Could this be the Italian unit mentioned on the UBoat.net website?

Regards
You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life.

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Post by Enrico Cernuschi »

STOP

Zembretta Is. is 37° 06 N 10° 48' E
HMS Quentin sunk near La Galite Is. 37° 40' N 08° 551 E
There are more than 100 miles between the two islands.

As the British destroyers (Jervis, Javelin, Nubian and kelvin) which attacked, that same night, the Italian torpedo Boat Lupo off kerkennah while she was recovering the surviviors of the Ferighter Veloce, come back as soon as possible at Malta, I believe the three German bombers attacked some Italian DDs (with no effect).

Any further suggestion, Gentlemen?

EC

PS For Cheshire Yeomanry. On 2 Dec. 1942 the Italian torpedoes remained under the belly of ther aircrafts.
There were not German torpedo bombers flying that day; for submarines and MTBs I confirm my infos.
The only three German planes attacking ships that day claimed a near miss, but this happened at East, while Quientin and Quiberon were sailing West.
PRO, then, stated HMS Quentin was not victim of friendly firte, so no Allied plane is involved.
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Post by Lorenz »

Any further suggestion, Gentlemen?
Perhaps the Quentin hit a mine? In the swirling mist of confusion that is caused by combat, things get reported wrong and conundrums are created. Or, perhaps Quentin was hit and severely damaged by the bomb from the Ju 88 as the report states, and limped along for another 100 miles before she went down.

--Lorenz
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Post by Andy H »

Lorenz wrote:
Any further suggestion, Gentlemen?
Perhaps the Quentin hit a mine? In the swirling mist of confusion that is caused by combat, things get reported wrong and conundrums are created. Or, perhaps Quentin was hit and severely damaged by the bomb from the Ju 88 as the report states, and limped along for another 100 miles before she went down.

--Lorenz
Well given the report that suggests it was intially damaged in the engine room, it could just be that the damaged destroyer drifted or imped along with minor engine power.

Regards
You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life.

And so as I patrol in the valley of the shadow of the tricolour I must fear evil, For I am but mortal and mortals can only die
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