Tank Strength and Types in 21PD and 25PzGD-Nordwind

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danielponiallain
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Re: Tank Strength and Types in 21PD and 25PzGD-Nordwind

Post by danielponiallain »


Dear Tom:
How do I get My Question to Kamen Nevenkin ucp.php?i=pm&mode=view&f=-1&p=93349 posted to this Outstanding Link so that anyone can answer not just Kamen Nevenkin?
Please inform.
Thank You. Daniel Kneeland, Grafton, Ma.
danielponiallain
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Re: Tank Strength and Types in 21PD and 25PzGD-Nordwind

Post by danielponiallain »

Dear Kamen:
The U.S Army Center of Military History (CMH) and It's Predecessors the U.S Army Office of the Chief of Military History and the U.S Army Historical Division determined in 1945-1946 that The Re-Equipped German 21st Panzer and 25th Panzer Grenadier Division attacked, under Heavy Conditions of Snow and Fog, into Hatten and Rittershoffen along the Upper Rhine River on the North Alsatian Plain from January 9-20, 1945 with the "almost 180 German Tanks, Tank Destroyers and Assault Guns" on a only a 2-3 Mile Front and that It was the Most German Armor in The Entire "Ardennes-Alsace Campaign" or the "Battle of the Bulge and Operation Nordwind" from Krinkelt and Rocherath in the Ardennes all the way down to Herrlisheim in Alsace on such a Narrow Front of 2-3 miles. In other words, The U.S Army Armored School confirmed in 1949-1950 again that it was true that the "Nightmarish and Terrifying Tank Battle of Hatten and Rittershoffen was the Largest German Tank, Tank Destroyer and Assault Gun Attack", on a 2-3 Mile Front in the Entire Ardennes-Alsace Campaign and It's Collision with the U.S 14th Armored Division and Elements of the 79th and 42nd Infantry Divisions and the Biggest Tank on Tank Battle in All of The Ardennes and in Alsace or "The Battle of the Bulge" and "Operation Nordwind" where the Germans, in the Ardennes, committed more Armor but spread out on a 65 Mile Front from Krinkelt and Rocherath to Clervaux which always makes The Huge Tank Battle of Hatten and Rittershoffen a fascinating "Anomaly" that the Largest Tank Battle, on a 2-3 Mile Front, was in The Nightmarish Tank Battle of Hatten and Rittershoffen in Alsace during "Operation Nordwind" than on any 2-3 MIle Front in "Ardennes Counter-Offensive or "Battle of the Bulge" The Ardennes!" The German lost about 57 Tanks, Tank Destroyers and Assault Guns completely "Knocked out" and "Destroyed" and the U.S 14th Armored Division and the U.S 813th and 827th Tank Destroyer Battalion (African-American) lost a total of 80 Tanks and Tank Destroyers completely "Knocked Out" or "Destroyed" of which 51 German Tanks, Tank Destroyers and Assault Guns and 40 U.S Tanks and Tank Destroyers still littered the Battlefield when liberated on March 19, 1945.
This, ofcourse, doesn't include, the German and U.S Tanks, Tank Destroyers and Assault Guns that were "Disabled" or "Repairable"!
So, Kamen, do you have any Info for the German 21st Panzer and 25th Panzer-Grenadier Divisions Operations Reports for January 15, 1945 and February 1, 1945 Personell and Armor Strengths so I can determine as close as possible how many German Battle Casualties and German Armor Losses in the Nightmarish and Terrifying Tank Battle of Hatten and Rittershoffen along the Upper Rhine River in in Northern Alsace Plain in Northeastern France from January 9-20, 1945 and German Division Personell and Equipment Losses for "Operation Nordwind" during January 1945?
Is their any Info for German Personell and Artillery Strengths of the German 7th Parachute and 47th Volks-Grenadier Division for January 1, January 15 or February 1, 1945?
Please inform.
Thank You. Daniel Kneeland, Grafton, Ma. U.S.A
danielponiallain
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Re: Tank Strength and Types in 21PD and 25PzGD-Nordwind

Post by danielponiallain »

Kamen-
Thank You Very Much for Your Information on the Armor Strengths on the German 21st Panzer and 25th Panzer-Grenadier Divisions of February 1, 1945 after the Nightmarish and Terrifying Tank Battle of Hatten and Rittershoffen ucp.php?i=pm&p=93356&sid=43c5f5af10482a ... 9d35d3c067 and I was wondering if any other World War II Historians with knowledge of the German Order of Battle Armor and Personell Strengths of the German 21st Panzer, 25th Panzer Grenadier, 10th SS Panzer, 17th SS Panzer Grenadier Divisions, the 394th and 667th Assault Gun Brigades for January 1, 15 and February 1, 1945?
It looks like the German 21st Panzer and 25th Panzer-Grenadier Divisions and the 394th and 667th Assault Gun Brigades lost a lot more than the 51 German Tanks, Tank Destroyers and Assault Guns that still littered the Battlefield of Hatten and Rittershoffen when it was liberated on March 19, 1945.
Please inform.
Thank You. Daniel Kneeland, Grafton, Ma.
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Re: Tank Strength and Types in 21PD and 25PzGD-Nordwind

Post by Alanmccoubrey »

I have only just come across this thread and was amazed to read Kamen saying that 25 PGD only had four "infantry" battalions, its two Panzergrenadier Regiments each had three battalions because it was after all a Panzergrenadier Division whose regiments had three battalions each.
Alan
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Re: Tank Strength and Types in 21PD and 25PzGD-Nordwind

Post by Dunnigan »

Alanmccoubrey wrote: Sun Feb 27, 2022 6:10 am I have only just come across this thread and was amazed to read Kamen saying that 25 PGD only had four "infantry" battalions, its two Panzergrenadier Regiments each had three battalions because it was after all a Panzergrenadier Division whose regiments had three battalions each.
The III./35 and III./119 PG Battalions were disbanded at least temporarily given the losses the division had.
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Re: Tank Strength and Types in 21PD and 25PzGD-Nordwind

Post by Alanmccoubrey »

Dunnigan wrote: Wed Sep 28, 2022 7:58 pm
Alanmccoubrey wrote: Sun Feb 27, 2022 6:10 am I have only just come across this thread and was amazed to read Kamen saying that 25 PGD only had four "infantry" battalions, its two Panzergrenadier Regiments each had three battalions because it was after all a Panzergrenadier Division whose regiments had three battalions each.
The III./35 and III./119 PG Battalions were disbanded at least temporarily given the losses the division had.
III./119 took over the Panzergrenadier Bataillon from Panzer Brigade 107 so was "gepanzert" and was certainly in action around the Küstrin Corridor, so do you mean after the attempts to relieve Küstrin ?
Alan
danielponiallain
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Re: Tank Strength and Types in 21PD and 25PzGD-Nordwind

Post by danielponiallain »

Dear World War II Researchers:
I've compiled as much as seems to be available on the Personell, Armor and Weapons Strenghts of the German 21st Panzer, 25th Panzer-Grenadier Divisions, 10th SS Panzer and 17th SS Panzer-Grenadier Divisions for "Operation Nordwind" and have found that the Strengths for December 1, 1944 are useless because these German Armored Units Re-Equipping didn't begin until December 24, 1944 and was completed around January 8. 1945. Here are the U.S and German National Archives Uploads for these 4 German Panzer and Panzer-Grenadier Units for around January 1, 1945 and after the the Nightmarish and Terrifying Tank Battles of Gros-Rederching, Rimling, Hatten and Rittershoffen and Herrlisheim on February 1, 1945 so that you can figure out their Casualties, Armor and Weapons losses for "Operation Nordwind" from January 1-25, 1945 which is considered the Climactic Battle of Alsace from November 1944-March 1945 during World War II:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1LbMW_x ... share_link

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1MF8POB ... share_link

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Lxd8Be ... share_link

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Lxpgp5 ... share_link

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1M12DKC ... share_link

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1pMnBBE ... share_link

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1M1Xmks ... share_link

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1MOR_ll ... share_link

During The "Battle of Alsace from November 1, 1944-January 31, 1945, the U.S 6th Army Group and It's 20 Divisions and Supporting Units suffered a staggering 69,425 Battle Casualties or the same exact Battle Casualties suffered by the U.S 1st and 9th Armies and Their 20 Division and Supporting Units in the much more famous "Battle of the Roer River, Battle of the Huertgen Forest and Battle of the Bulge" for the same exact time frame of these 3 months but the U.S 6th Army Group and It's U.S 7th Army and French 1st Army never received any credit for "The Battle of Alsace" especially from November 1944 to January 1945 (see my Post on Internet Archive especially "Battebook Battle of Alsace 1944-1945 https://archive.org/details/battlebook- ... 9/mode/2up and all my posts on Internet Archive).
Sincerely, Daniel Kneeland, Grafton, Ma.
danielponiallain
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Re: Tank Strength and Types in 21PD and 25PzGD-Nordwind

Post by danielponiallain »

Dear World War II Researchers:
I have repaired broken links above on Re-Equipping of 21st Panzer, 25th Panzer-Grenadier Divisions, 10th SS Panzer and 17th SS Panzer-Grenadier Divisions for Operation Nordwind from December 24, 1944-January 8, 1945 and I also included the German Armored Units Strengths after Operation Nordwind:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1MS8neM ... sp=sharing

https://drive.google.com/file/d/10wL6Iu ... sp=sharing

Finally, I found the After Operation Nordwind German Armored Unit Strengths dated January 31, February 1 and March 1, 1945 so you can determine the German Armored Losses in the Battles of Gros-Rederching and Rimling, Hatten and Rittershoffen, Sessenheim and the Herrlisheim:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1-NUBmR ... sp=sharing

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1vUbRx5 ... sp=sharing

Finally, here is the Inspector General of Armored Troops for January 15, 1945 after the Battle of Gros-Rederching and Rimling, during the Tank Battle of Hatten and Rittershoffen and Sessenheim and right before the Battle of Herrlisheim:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/146Q6wi ... sp=sharing

Again, it looks like The Nightmarish and Terrifying Tank Battle of Hatten and Rittershoffen is where The German 1st Army lost almost 50% of It's Tanks, Tank Destroyers and Assault Guns during Operation Nordwind in the 21st Panzer and 25th Panzer-Grenadier Divisions and the 394th and 667th Assault Guns Brigades.
I found these German Unit Operations Reports online at the German Archives at Freiberg.
Don't ever use the German Foreign Military Studies done by ETOUSA from 1945-1959 for German Unit Strengths and Dugdale's "Panzer and Panzer-Grenadier Divisions and Panzer Brigades" never produced Volume 5 so It's Personell Strengths are only for December 1, 1944 long before the "Re-Equipping of the 21st Panzer, 25th Panzer-Grenadier, 10th SS Panzer and 17th SS Panzer-Grenadier Divisions from December 24, 1944-January 8, 1945 for Operation Nordwind and Strengths after Operation Nordwind have to always again be taken from the "Official German Unit Operations Reports at the German Archives in Freiberg which are available online which I'm sure your all well aware.
Sincerely, Daniel Kneeland, Grafton, Ma.
danielponiallain
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Re: Tank Strength and Types in 21PD and 25PzGD-Nordwind

Post by danielponiallain »

It looks like Operation Nordwind employed 185,000 German Soldiers in 15 Divisions against 11 U.S Divisions and is therefore the 2nd Largest German Offensive to hit the Western Allies since 1940 because It was larger than the German Counter-Offensives at Kasserine Pass, Anzio and Mortain but not as large as the German Ardennes Counter-Offensive in the Ardennes which employed 28 German Divisions against 29 U.S Divisions. I re-linked some of my Personell, Armor and Weapons Strengths of the German 21st Panzer, 25th Panzer-Grenadier, 10th SS Panzer and 17th SS Panzer-Grenadier Division before Operation Nordwind and after Operation Nordwind and it looks like about 50% of the German Tanks, Tank Destroyers and Assault Guns were "Knocked Out" or "Disabled" in the Tank Battle of Hatten and Rittershoffen but you can also get a good idea of the German Armor Losses in the Battle of Gros-Rederching and Rimling, Hatten and Rittershoffen, Sessenheim and Herrlisheim from the following German Reports from the online German Military Archives at Freiberg:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/10orU3V ... sp=sharing

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1-_OS7A ... sp=sharing

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1-_j1OP ... sp=sharing

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1-_VOc8 ... sp=sharing

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1-_MaJG ... sp=sharing

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1-cF63r ... sp=sharing

These Reports are for After Operation Nordwind:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1-NUBmR ... sp=sharing

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1vUbRx5 ... sp=sharing

It's interesting to note that the German 25th Panzer-Grenadier Division was more than doubled from It's December 1, 1944 Strength and rebuilt to a Full-Size Panzer-Grenadier Division by January 8, 1945 with an Exceptional Establishment of 2 Companies of Panthers and 1 Company of Mark IV's instead of just Tank-Destroyers and Assault Guns like all other Panzer-Grenadier Divisions in the German Army. It's only 1 Company of Mark IV Tanks short of being a Full-Fledged Panzer Division before the Collision of American and German Armored and Infantry Units at Hatten and Rittershoffen where there were almost 6,000 American and German Battle Casualties from January 9-20, 1945.
Dan Kneeland, Grafton, Ma.
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